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Poster: cashel Date: Apr 30, 2004 9:40am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

STEVE...thank you and I applaud your reply. Adding another opinion by me...It is a pity that so many of the films must be treated with extreme caution (outdated, omissions, propaganda and insufficient information in reviews.) I cite just one example ,"henry fords mirror,," contains splendid and valuable images but omits essential information. The film shows only a good man but history shows a lesser man active in hate campaigns, vile treatment of his workers, receiving highest decoration from hitler,s government. And the film lingers to exalt his memory

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Poster: ridetheory Date: May 1, 2004 7:59am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

Yeah, somebody ought to re-edit that film to create a new message that would be loathesome to Henry Ford.

ridetheory

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Poster: cashel Date: May 1, 2004 8:14am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

Unfortunately, the task is beyond me. I wish I had ability and expertise. But no, I havent. Best wishes to any one with talent and time who is willing to try

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Poster: ridetheory Date: May 2, 2004 2:07am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

But wouldn't that break rule #2?

"2...Do NOT manipulate images dishonestly ( making a film that shows a person uttering a message that is totally repugnant to his ideals."

ridetheory

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Poster: cashel Date: May 2, 2004 2:21am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

NO .The film should be edited tp tell the truth about h.ford.There would be no lies .The truth. There would be no trickery with images (does that satisfy you) Certainly , no manipulation t o have a person uttering words which they never said .There is no necessity, the truth is damning

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Poster: ridetheory Date: May 2, 2004 3:37am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

So, as long as the message corresponds with your version of "The Truth", you'll approve of it? Aren't there many viewpoints? Aren't there many truths? Or is there JUST YOURS?



This post was modified by ridetheory on 2004-05-02 10:37:52

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Poster: cashel Date: May 2, 2004 7:09am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

THIS is my LAST communication on this subject.. I consider a TRUTHFUL FILM to be just a collection of factual items....Just one error and a film or any other document will fall into disrepute. no more replies

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Poster: summerseve Date: May 2, 2004 11:51am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

"Just one error and a film or any other document will fall into disrepute"
_________
What the...?
OK, Jack, on the off chance that you're serious:
"Citizen Kane" is thinly-veiled smear of W.R. Hearst, and it plays extremely fast and loose with the facts.
If that film is in disrepute, we'd all like a taste of disrepute...

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Poster: cashel Date: May 2, 2004 12:17pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

Citizen Kane was presented as a work of fiction.

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Poster: uniQ Date: May 2, 2004 2:18pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

And so was Copernicus's "On the Revolutions of Celestial Bodies" or whatever it was (I've never watched Cit. K but just because it's 'Fiction' doesn't mean that it's not supposed to have anything to do with fact.

-uniQ

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Poster: cashel Date: May 2, 2004 2:46pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

replying to uniQ....Ofcourse fiction has a relationship to fact. However a factual presentation(biography, history, science,etc) whether it be a book,film, etc must be accurate and not contain any lies. Long live the difference between fiction and fact..

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Poster: ridetheory Date: May 2, 2004 4:16pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

One of the best accounts of the 1939 World's Fair I've read is "1939: The Lost World of the Fair" by by David Gelernter. In it, the author alternates between a fictional oral history and the real history of the fair. There was no actual person he interviewed; her story is completely made up.

Where would that fit on your ethical scale, jack2? Is it okay? Is it not allowed?

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Poster: cashel Date: May 2, 2004 4:53pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

replying to ridetheory...From your description, it seems a good way of telling a story. I doubt that an intelligent reader would confuse the facts with the fiction. The author,s ethics are ok , but not so ,any nitpickers concerned with her novel

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Poster: summerseve Date: May 3, 2004 12:35am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

"Long live the difference between fiction and fact."

Film always manipulates "fact", whether it's presented as documentary, fiction, or otherwise. As long as there are human beings behind the camera and in the editing room, there's a human perspective (that's why security camera footage is so boring).
Think of Leni Riefenstahl's glorifications of Hitler...you could call her work "factual", since she shot what was actually going on. But the camera angles, tracking shots, editing, long shots vs. close-ups, etc. etc. are all choices made by a human being, which effect the final product that strikes your eyeballs. You're no longer looking at a "fact", but someone's version of it.
That's an extreme example. But it's always the case that the film-makers are part of the film, even if the only statement that's made is about their own ineptitude.
And unless they are completely hidden, the presence of the crew and cameras effects the "facts" too. Riefenstahl had her crew dress in nazi uniforms, so that subjects wouldn't act differently because of the presence of "outsiders"...

2 cents, spend them as you will...

This post was modified by trafalgar on 2004-05-03 07:35:35

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Poster: cashel Date: May 3, 2004 6:33am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

trafalgar, an excellent statement I will leave this discussion ,now

This post was modified by jack2 on 2004-05-03 13:33:13

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Poster: lumberjackvegetable Date: May 2, 2004 9:25am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

I know you are no longer responding, but...
(and why cut it off when it is just getting interesting?)
Even presentation of 'facts' does not necessarily give a viewer 'truth' -- there are millions and millions of facts to be sorted, and based on the ones that someone chooses, really, any end result can be acheived. I believe there is such a thing as 'truth' and I also believe that I or you or anyone will never never be able to grasp it.

You do your best and try to reach YOUR end result as precisely and clearly as possible.

Jack2, making up all these rules, e.g. don't manipulate people words to mean the opposite of what they say, is making Prelinger less fun.

If we are not going to get sued here, let's do whatever we can with this footage. We have been blessed with hours upon hours of some poor schlub's 'truth,' so let's discuss and have some fun. Let's learn from each other and break some rules. The great ones always broke the rules, they didn't make new ones and get angry when other people didn't respect them.

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Poster: ridetheory Date: May 2, 2004 9:43am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: using the english language

> Jack2, making up all these rules, e.g.
> don't manipulate people words to mean
> the opposite of what they say, is making
> Prelinger less fun.

Well, he can make up all the rules he wants to, because he can't actually enforce any of them.